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Author Topic: DIVOTS
RANDYL
Newbie
Posts: 10
Post DIVOTS
on: August 6, 2013, 19:22

I know that with MGS my attack is on a shallower plane but should I be taking divots
with my wedges? Right now I am just brushing the grass and for the most part I am
not taking much of a divot with any club. The only time I do take a deeper divot is
when I seem to block the shot to the right with my short irons and miss the green.

realgolfer
Administrator
Posts: 32
Post Re: DIVOTS
on: August 7, 2013, 09:32

Quote from RANDYL on August 6, 2013, 19:22
I know that with MGS my attack is on a shallower plane but should I be taking divots
with my wedges? Right now I am just brushing the grass and for the most part I am
not taking much of a divot with any club. The only time I do take a deeper divot is
when I seem to block the shot to the right with my short irons and miss the green.

Randy, even with MGS, you are still striking the ball on a downward angle, and the divots should still be ahead of the ball. The world's best ball striker, Moe Norman, if you watch a lot of his demo videos, you see him taking very little turf....

You see, if the club is bottoming out at the ball position, and you are letting the lead wrist release into Ulnar deviation with a relaxed lead arm as you swing, and you don't change your spine angle, you will not take that much of divot - how can the club go down any more....

The purpose of the drill "clean picker" in the book is to help you acquire a feel for taking divots and the correct angle of attack using your MGS action....

The question is how is the ball reacting on the green? Are you getting it to spin?

RANDYL
Newbie
Posts: 10
Post Re: DIVOTS
on: August 8, 2013, 13:16

One hop and stop for the most part. Since I purchased your book my handicap is on the way down. For
last 4 rounds I am averaging 4 strokes less than my handicap per round. Yesterday I hit 13/14 fairways and 13 greens. I couldn't be more satisfied with my improvement. Now if you could just give me some advice on how to putt on greens that stimp out at 13+ my scoring would continue to go down.
Oh by the way, I am also working with your Speed training workout. After 5 workouts my drives have
increased by 5+ yards. One thing that the speed training is making me question is when and where do I
accelerate the the golf club? In training I seem to be aware of my hands more at the top and ready to fire but on the course that is not a productive thought. Yesterday on the course I let the club start down on its
own and stepped on the accelerator about 1/4 of the way down. Where does your speed come from and when in your swing do you step on it?

sacto83
Advanced
Posts: 59
Post Re: DIVOTS
on: August 10, 2013, 11:02

The amount of divot you take is most associated with how much weight you have transferred to the lead side by the time you impact the ball.

Normally, the bottom of your arc with irons is about even with your lead shoulder at impact. However, you can change the bottom of the arc position with the spine tilt (not the one from the hips bending forward, rather the one where you are tilting the spine slightly away from the target).

With MGS and the pre-turn (with the pivot between the feet) you need to be careful not to load too much weight to the trail side in the BS. Too much weight to the trail side will make it harder to get the weight back to the lead side with any consistency. The result is either a shallower angle of approach (less of a divot), or if too much weight is left on the trail side during the DS, bottoming out behind the ball.

If you are not careful, the pre-turn in the MGS can cause too much of a rearward spine tilt which in turn will make the DS swing too shallow. Most instructors will tell you that you don’t need to take a divot to play good irons shots, but what you shouldn’t be doing is increasing the loft during impact (with a swing that’s too shallow). You wind up not compressing the ball.

You said: "The only time I do take a deeper divot is when I seem to block the shot to the right with my short irons and miss the green." The reason you block the shot is probably because you have left too much weight on the trail leg during the DS and not fully transferred your weight to the lead side. With the short irons, keep most of the weight on the lead leg in the BS since there is less time to transfer weight from back to front.
Another reason for blocking is sequencing. You let the lower body move too fast and it winds up dragging the upper torso and arms rather than performing a good pivot and a swing. The arms a left behind a little and the clubface doesn’t quite square by impact.

realgolfer
Administrator
Posts: 32
Post Re: DIVOTS
on: August 11, 2013, 13:45

Quote from RANDYL on August 8, 2013, 13:16
One hop and stop for the most part. Now if you could just give me some advice on how to putt on greens that stimp out at 13+ my scoring would continue to go down.
Oh by the way, I am also working with your Speed training workout. After 5 workouts my drives have
increased by 5+ yards. One thing that the speed training is making me question is when and where do I
accelerate the the golf club? In training I seem to be aware of my hands more at the top and ready to fire but on the course that is not a productive thought. Yesterday on the course I let the club start down on its
own and stepped on the accelerator about 1/4 of the way down. Where does your speed come from and when in your swing do you step on it?

Divots and SpinIf you are getting one hop and stop, then I wouldn't worry about your divots or lack thereof. You obviously have the correct amount of spin on your shots.

Putting With any green, you want to determine what Geoff Magnum of the putting zone calls you "core putt". This is a putt that you make with just a pure swing of the putter back and through, allowing it to swing to it's natural stop...no hit or extra umphf to the putt at all. Just swing the putter back to where it feels natural to stop, and then LET it swing back through. It may take you a few tries, but once you acquire the feel for it, you will be surprised at how easily the distance on these putts repeats.

Now, once you have your core putt repeating, Mark your starting spot, and then with your normal walk, pace of the distance of the putts along the line of your putts. This is your "core putt distance". For a stimp of 13, my guess is that the number of paces is around 15 - 16. Practice this length putt for while, and each time before you go out and play, "re-calibrate" your core putt to allow for any changes in green speed day to day, usually it doesn't change much.

****EDT**** 8-12

Forgot the most imp[important part, once yu know what your core putt distance is, use that info in your practice and on the course. For practice, drop balls at 1/4, 1/2, 3/4. and at your core distances. Then move further away from the hole and drop balls at core , core + 1/2, 2 times core, etc. In this way you are continuing to calibrate for speed and learning how much you need to add or subtract for different putt lengths on each side of your core putt. it sounds like a lot, but you can do a pretty good job of calibrating in about 20 minutes. So out on the course you simply estimate what you put is. Let's say that on this day tour core is 15 paces. On a short par 5 you stub your chip, and it leaves you a 6 footer. you say to yourself " I need about 1/2 my core on this putt". It's about 1/2 putt because remember, you want your putt to have enough speed so that if it were to miss it would roll about 12 inches past the hole.

******End Edit 8-12 ******

Now you need to learn how to determine the fall line - or the zero break line. This is the line that if putted on will result in the ball rolling with no break to the right or left. The easiest way to determine this is with a pie plate and golf ball, or a mason jar lid and a marble. Place the plate and ball over the hole, and roll the ball around the edge of the plate. Eventually the ball will settle to the lowest point. That is 6 o'clock if the plate was a clock face. Mark that spot, and then mark 12 o'clock above the hole. The line that runs through the two marks is the zero break line. Use your pie plate and ball and find the zero break line on another hole or two on the putting green. Here is a picture of my fall line finder:

Image

Now go to some other holes, and without your break finder, try to determine the lowest point of the hole by observing how the cup is cut, the terrain of the green etc. mark the spots as before, and then check your read of the break line - obviously you need to practice this cause you cant check the fall line with your plate during a match.

Now the fun part. Walk off your core distance LESS ONE HALF STEP, on a line the is perpendicular to the fall line. Be as careful as you can to make sure it is 90 degrees to the fall line. Now, mark that spot and begin rolling putts to the hole alone that perpendicular line - obviously, they will miss the hole, and stop rolling about 12-16 inches past the hole ( that is why your walk off distance is one half step less). observe the putts as they approach the hole, and notice where they cross the fall line. Do a few as nobody hits perfect putts. (The job is made easier if you have a stimp meter or ball roller). Once you determine how far below the hole the ball crosses the fall line, measure it, and then mark that distance on the fall line above the hole. THIS IS YOUR AIM POINT FOR EVERY PUTT OF YOUR CORE DISTANCE FROM ANY SPOT ON THE GREEN. When you putt, you should always aim toward this spot, and start you ball on that line. Practice a few putts from each side on the perpendicular line to provide yourself proof of concept and then begin trying putts from all around the whole always aiming at the spot above the hole.

If you have a green that doesn't get a lot of traffic/use, or you go out early before anyone is there you can use a chalkline and snap several lines for you to practice with. Here is a picture showing several different lines I snapped to practice. This slope was 1.8 degrees, and the stimp was 11 paces - about 9 actual stimp:

Image

Small adjustments have to be made as you move further away from the hole and also whether you are above or below the hole, and these must be determined by you for the greens you play on, but here's the basic guidelines:

The FURTHER away from the hole , the HIGHER the aimpoint and vice versa as you move closer to the hole.

Like wise, the higher above the hole, the higher you adjust your aim point, and again the opposite the more you are below the hole.

Finally, the faster the greens, thew higher the aim point, and the slower the greens the lower the aim point.

As you become more proficient at determining the fall line, you will get better and better and find that when you miss putts, now you miss them on the "pro side of the hole" more often. The next progression would be to chart your chipping and pitches, and determine the average length of the putts you have for you to save your par ( make birdie on those short par fives ). Practice this length putts often and your scores will go down. The last 6 feet around the hole, which is what most amateurs chip to, is where the fall line has the biggest effect.

Speed Training When working the training, you want to go as hard as you can using your normal swing, and trying to swing properly. Still allow the start of the swing to be somewhat of am drop or fall of the arms and then fire through as you arms are lower. By adhering to the speed training program, you will be developing your fast twitch fibers for maximum speed you are capable of, and your body will adapt.

When actually playing on the course, I want my students to be thinking only of their clearkey, not any mechanical thoughts or golf swing related images at all. Allow your subconscious to direct the execution.

So I guess what I am saying is allow the training to do it's job, and give it all you got when training, but out on the course, trust that the speed and distance will be there and don't give in to thinking about mechanics on the course.

That was long, and sorry it took so long to respond - hope that helps ( actually, I know it will )!
Glad you are playing better golf and I am pleased I had some part in that!

Kevin

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Pages: [1]
Author Topic: DIVOTS
RANDYL
Newbie
Posts: 10
Post DIVOTS
on: August 6, 2013, 19:22

I know that with MGS my attack is on a shallower plane but should I be taking divots
with my wedges? Right now I am just brushing the grass and for the most part I am
not taking much of a divot with any club. The only time I do take a deeper divot is
when I seem to block the shot to the right with my short irons and miss the green.

realgolfer
Administrator
Posts: 32
Post Re: DIVOTS
on: August 7, 2013, 09:32

Quote from RANDYL on August 6, 2013, 19:22
I know that with MGS my attack is on a shallower plane but should I be taking divots
with my wedges? Right now I am just brushing the grass and for the most part I am
not taking much of a divot with any club. The only time I do take a deeper divot is
when I seem to block the shot to the right with my short irons and miss the green.

Randy, even with MGS, you are still striking the ball on a downward angle, and the divots should still be ahead of the ball. The world's best ball striker, Moe Norman, if you watch a lot of his demo videos, you see him taking very little turf....

You see, if the club is bottoming out at the ball position, and you are letting the lead wrist release into Ulnar deviation with a relaxed lead arm as you swing, and you don't change your spine angle, you will not take that much of divot - how can the club go down any more....

The purpose of the drill "clean picker" in the book is to help you acquire a feel for taking divots and the correct angle of attack using your MGS action....

The question is how is the ball reacting on the green? Are you getting it to spin?

RANDYL
Newbie
Posts: 10
Post Re: DIVOTS
on: August 8, 2013, 13:16

One hop and stop for the most part. Since I purchased your book my handicap is on the way down. For
last 4 rounds I am averaging 4 strokes less than my handicap per round. Yesterday I hit 13/14 fairways and 13 greens. I couldn't be more satisfied with my improvement. Now if you could just give me some advice on how to putt on greens that stimp out at 13+ my scoring would continue to go down.
Oh by the way, I am also working with your Speed training workout. After 5 workouts my drives have
increased by 5+ yards. One thing that the speed training is making me question is when and where do I
accelerate the the golf club? In training I seem to be aware of my hands more at the top and ready to fire but on the course that is not a productive thought. Yesterday on the course I let the club start down on its
own and stepped on the accelerator about 1/4 of the way down. Where does your speed come from and when in your swing do you step on it?

sacto83
Advanced
Posts: 59
Post Re: DIVOTS
on: August 10, 2013, 11:02

The amount of divot you take is most associated with how much weight you have transferred to the lead side by the time you impact the ball.

Normally, the bottom of your arc with irons is about even with your lead shoulder at impact. However, you can change the bottom of the arc position with the spine tilt (not the one from the hips bending forward, rather the one where you are tilting the spine slightly away from the target).

With MGS and the pre-turn (with the pivot between the feet) you need to be careful not to load too much weight to the trail side in the BS. Too much weight to the trail side will make it harder to get the weight back to the lead side with any consistency. The result is either a shallower angle of approach (less of a divot), or if too much weight is left on the trail side during the DS, bottoming out behind the ball.

If you are not careful, the pre-turn in the MGS can cause too much of a rearward spine tilt which in turn will make the DS swing too shallow. Most instructors will tell you that you don’t need to take a divot to play good irons shots, but what you shouldn’t be doing is increasing the loft during impact (with a swing that’s too shallow). You wind up not compressing the ball.

You said: "The only time I do take a deeper divot is when I seem to block the shot to the right with my short irons and miss the green." The reason you block the shot is probably because you have left too much weight on the trail leg during the DS and not fully transferred your weight to the lead side. With the short irons, keep most of the weight on the lead leg in the BS since there is less time to transfer weight from back to front.
Another reason for blocking is sequencing. You let the lower body move too fast and it winds up dragging the upper torso and arms rather than performing a good pivot and a swing. The arms a left behind a little and the clubface doesn’t quite square by impact.

realgolfer
Administrator
Posts: 32
Post Re: DIVOTS
on: August 11, 2013, 13:45

Quote from RANDYL on August 8, 2013, 13:16
One hop and stop for the most part. Now if you could just give me some advice on how to putt on greens that stimp out at 13+ my scoring would continue to go down.
Oh by the way, I am also working with your Speed training workout. After 5 workouts my drives have
increased by 5+ yards. One thing that the speed training is making me question is when and where do I
accelerate the the golf club? In training I seem to be aware of my hands more at the top and ready to fire but on the course that is not a productive thought. Yesterday on the course I let the club start down on its
own and stepped on the accelerator about 1/4 of the way down. Where does your speed come from and when in your swing do you step on it?

Divots and SpinIf you are getting one hop and stop, then I wouldn't worry about your divots or lack thereof. You obviously have the correct amount of spin on your shots.

Putting With any green, you want to determine what Geoff Magnum of the putting zone calls you "core putt". This is a putt that you make with just a pure swing of the putter back and through, allowing it to swing to it's natural stop...no hit or extra umphf to the putt at all. Just swing the putter back to where it feels natural to stop, and then LET it swing back through. It may take you a few tries, but once you acquire the feel for it, you will be surprised at how easily the distance on these putts repeats.

Now, once you have your core putt repeating, Mark your starting spot, and then with your normal walk, pace of the distance of the putts along the line of your putts. This is your "core putt distance". For a stimp of 13, my guess is that the number of paces is around 15 - 16. Practice this length putt for while, and each time before you go out and play, "re-calibrate" your core putt to allow for any changes in green speed day to day, usually it doesn't change much.

****EDT**** 8-12

Forgot the most imp[important part, once yu know what your core putt distance is, use that info in your practice and on the course. For practice, drop balls at 1/4, 1/2, 3/4. and at your core distances. Then move further away from the hole and drop balls at core , core + 1/2, 2 times core, etc. In this way you are continuing to calibrate for speed and learning how much you need to add or subtract for different putt lengths on each side of your core putt. it sounds like a lot, but you can do a pretty good job of calibrating in about 20 minutes. So out on the course you simply estimate what you put is. Let's say that on this day tour core is 15 paces. On a short par 5 you stub your chip, and it leaves you a 6 footer. you say to yourself " I need about 1/2 my core on this putt". It's about 1/2 putt because remember, you want your putt to have enough speed so that if it were to miss it would roll about 12 inches past the hole.

******End Edit 8-12 ******

Now you need to learn how to determine the fall line - or the zero break line. This is the line that if putted on will result in the ball rolling with no break to the right or left. The easiest way to determine this is with a pie plate and golf ball, or a mason jar lid and a marble. Place the plate and ball over the hole, and roll the ball around the edge of the plate. Eventually the ball will settle to the lowest point. That is 6 o'clock if the plate was a clock face. Mark that spot, and then mark 12 o'clock above the hole. The line that runs through the two marks is the zero break line. Use your pie plate and ball and find the zero break line on another hole or two on the putting green. Here is a picture of my fall line finder:

Image

Now go to some other holes, and without your break finder, try to determine the lowest point of the hole by observing how the cup is cut, the terrain of the green etc. mark the spots as before, and then check your read of the break line - obviously you need to practice this cause you cant check the fall line with your plate during a match.

Now the fun part. Walk off your core distance LESS ONE HALF STEP, on a line the is perpendicular to the fall line. Be as careful as you can to make sure it is 90 degrees to the fall line. Now, mark that spot and begin rolling putts to the hole alone that perpendicular line - obviously, they will miss the hole, and stop rolling about 12-16 inches past the hole ( that is why your walk off distance is one half step less). observe the putts as they approach the hole, and notice where they cross the fall line. Do a few as nobody hits perfect putts. (The job is made easier if you have a stimp meter or ball roller). Once you determine how far below the hole the ball crosses the fall line, measure it, and then mark that distance on the fall line above the hole. THIS IS YOUR AIM POINT FOR EVERY PUTT OF YOUR CORE DISTANCE FROM ANY SPOT ON THE GREEN. When you putt, you should always aim toward this spot, and start you ball on that line. Practice a few putts from each side on the perpendicular line to provide yourself proof of concept and then begin trying putts from all around the whole always aiming at the spot above the hole.

If you have a green that doesn't get a lot of traffic/use, or you go out early before anyone is there you can use a chalkline and snap several lines for you to practice with. Here is a picture showing several different lines I snapped to practice. This slope was 1.8 degrees, and the stimp was 11 paces - about 9 actual stimp:

Image

Small adjustments have to be made as you move further away from the hole and also whether you are above or below the hole, and these must be determined by you for the greens you play on, but here's the basic guidelines:

The FURTHER away from the hole , the HIGHER the aimpoint and vice versa as you move closer to the hole.

Like wise, the higher above the hole, the higher you adjust your aim point, and again the opposite the more you are below the hole.

Finally, the faster the greens, thew higher the aim point, and the slower the greens the lower the aim point.

As you become more proficient at determining the fall line, you will get better and better and find that when you miss putts, now you miss them on the "pro side of the hole" more often. The next progression would be to chart your chipping and pitches, and determine the average length of the putts you have for you to save your par ( make birdie on those short par fives ). Practice this length putts often and your scores will go down. The last 6 feet around the hole, which is what most amateurs chip to, is where the fall line has the biggest effect.

Speed Training When working the training, you want to go as hard as you can using your normal swing, and trying to swing properly. Still allow the start of the swing to be somewhat of am drop or fall of the arms and then fire through as you arms are lower. By adhering to the speed training program, you will be developing your fast twitch fibers for maximum speed you are capable of, and your body will adapt.

When actually playing on the course, I want my students to be thinking only of their clearkey, not any mechanical thoughts or golf swing related images at all. Allow your subconscious to direct the execution.

So I guess what I am saying is allow the training to do it's job, and give it all you got when training, but out on the course, trust that the speed and distance will be there and don't give in to thinking about mechanics on the course.

That was long, and sorry it took so long to respond - hope that helps ( actually, I know it will )!
Glad you are playing better golf and I am pleased I had some part in that!

Kevin

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Mingle Forum by cartpauj
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