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Author Topic: willinlv Lesson #1
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Posts: 191
Post willinlv Lesson #1
on: March 2, 2012, 01:57

willinlv sent some video. Here are a couple of things to think about:

Address
Image

Your shoulders are just about parallel to the target line. You don't start out with near enough torso twist. Bill fessed up that he addresses the ball and sets his stance, THEN makes his torso twist. This is something I am seeing a lot. Please, until you have the set "down", the correct procedure is feet together, bend from hips, twist torso, set feet apart shoulder width. Bill also said he waggles a couple of times before pulling the trigger and that the clip was trimmed to after the waggle....the waggle has pulled him out of his MGS set most likely. The amount of twist you should have AS YOU BEGIN THE BACK SWING is about like you find in this next picture:

Takeaway
Image
See how you can see your chest here Bill? That is where you be be Starting your back swing from. But as you can see, you are already rotating your shoulders and lifting the right shoulder higher than the left.

Top of Swing
Image

The right shoulder is higher than the left by a lot now, and the right elbow is pointing behind you. It should be more pointing down like the yellow line.

Guest
Pro
Posts: 191
Post willinlv Lesson #1 - Face On
on: March 2, 2012, 02:30

The lead arm should climb steeply up the wall of the chest with little shoulder turn. Remember, the "turn" and loading is "built into" your swing by a proper MGS set up. When you make your backswing, you simply let the lead arm come up the chest, at the Top of swing, the right should be hidden by the lead arm...it should be below the lead arm and shoulder:

Image

At top of swing you can see your right shoulder is visible and you have cocked your wrists alot. The club is too "narrow as Kiran would say. The club should be more like the blue line in the top pic. The way you are doing it creates tension in the right shoulder and arm.

Image

Also, your weight has moved from centered to back on your left side, and you have lost some of your brace of your trail leg.

Guest
Pro
Posts: 191
Post willinlv Lesson #1 Weight Shift and Hip Turn
on: March 2, 2012, 02:47

Image
This is what I mean, notice how you have moved "off your body center" - a nice move by the way for classic golf....but the minimalist approach says "Why?" Because if you turn and move back, you will have to unturn and move forward. Keep your weight at body center and just lift the lead arm up and back with no additional turning or pulling back.

So I would try and focus on just getting into your MGS set that looks like the left hand pic, and
keep looking like that as you LET the lead arm ride STEEPLY up your chest wall:
Image

You had mentioned in one of your posts or emails some where shots right...this over active lower body and not getting into an MGS posture and staying there is probably why.

Guest
Pro
Posts: 191
Post Bill Set Up Change Needed
on: March 6, 2012, 03:21

Bill sent some more video, but he is only allowing to post his golf ones, NOT the ones with him and Paris Hilton :P ! Here ya Go.

Image

You can see a lot of Natural Golf / Moe Norman in Bill's set up. He sets up ala Moe with a line running straight up the lead side. MGS wants you to set up more balanced weight even distributed with hips and shoulders. If you set up with weight evenly distributed, and bend form the hips, then torso twist, you will get more of a "pre-load" and more of the desired reverse K look in the trail side. Your set up is good for a non MGS swing that will have you make a weight shift - you have already got a nice head start - the weight is already back. But that will cause problems later on.

Image

You can see at top of swing, your turn has caused your weight to move back even more so that now it is outside the brace of your trail leg. Houston we a problem. To make a good shot, you must get your weight back toward the ball before the club arrives. But as you can see in the final still sequence, your weight is still back even though your hands have dropped to pre-impact.

Image

You have two choices to improve your ball striking. Choice one is to practice the Vital/Master Move of Bertholy that is taught in my Blueprint, and is made by virtually all the elite ball strikers in the world.
OR

You can set up more MGS like, and make a "no weight shift" swing that allows for immediate timing and body mass distributed with maximum efficiency without placing a huge premium on sequencing different body parts back and through.

willyinnv
Beginner
Posts: 36
Post Re: willinlv Lesson #1
on: March 6, 2012, 18:41

ThanX Kevin, for a professional, conscientious review. I'll take a golf break [from 'Paris'] and
work on better implementing proper MGS fundamentals - hopeful of sending you better video soon!
Whatta Challenge! Bill aka 'willyinnv'

Guest
Pro
Posts: 191
Post More on set up - Arm hang
on: March 7, 2012, 01:51

Quote from willyinnv on March 6, 2012, 18:41

Whatta Challenge! Bill aka 'willyinnv'

Bill, once you get it set right, you will see it is not quite the challenge you imagine. MGS sets everything up for a good swing. Your waggle is pulling your right shoulder forward before you begin your back swing, taking you out of your MGS twist. And because your use your SA alignment with your hands higher, you must reach forward and up, which brings your right shoulder back toward the target line. I don't want to give you too much, because you are a lot closer than you think.

If you insist on keeping your trail arm and shaft in line, try making your twist, keeping it there, and let the club shaft stay in a straight line with your lead arm. This will have your club head set behind the ball some more ala Moe...which is okay IF you keep your torso twist.

When swinging to the top, try to feel as if your lead arm and club maintain this straight relationship all the way to the top of the swing. Resist the urge to pull back and around with the trail arm...instead just keep it relaxed and "along for the ride". Your trail arm you should feel like it only has a bend of "around" 130 degrees. Yours bends too much.

A lot of MGS is counter intuitive to what we think should work. This is because of years of playing a certain way, and all the "teaching" we have been exposed too. In your case ( mine too ), years of swinging with the shaft in line with the trail arm has you pre-conditioned against a more natural arm swing.

Try bending more from the hips, and letting your arms hang more free. Take your MGS set without a club and bend over so that as your lead arm hangs there, it is no farther away from your zipper than about 6 inches - about the distance from your pinkie finger to your thumb when your fingers are fully extended. Now, keeping the forward bend and the torso twist, just swing your arm up and down, take it as high as you can, and then just swing it back down...notice how effort less the swing of the arm is, and notice also the path the arm takes. BECAUSE YOUR LEAD ARM IS THE RADIUS OF THE SWING, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THE TRAIL ARM IS SA ALIGNED OR NOT!

Now, take your normal SA aligned stance and grip with a club. Then drop the club and swing your lead arm again up and down and feel the difference, again noting the path your lead arm takes. Which one seems more natural and gives a freer swing of the arms? Be honest.

Image

You see, you have followed my posts for years on the other forum. You know I held in low esteem any golf action that involved an arms swing. I was a lower body starts the swing first, the arms are "passive" and a body swinger advocate.

But with a a proper MGS set up, you still have the body involved, but with a lot less wasted motion. The body is set in place so that the big muscles still provide power, but they are able to do it in more harmony with the arms swing. When you do MGS correctly, you can swing your arms all you want and they won't get out of sync with your body, because your body is already synched - all that's left is for the arms to swing.

I wish I had the bio-mechanics proficiency to explain the above, but we will just have to wait for Sacto, or Kiran to chime in. But to give you a peek behind the curtain, notice what you feel in your lower body as you make your MGS twist - what parts get tighter, where is your wiehgt going, where do you feel stretches? MGS loads you up without you having to make the big wind of classic golf, or the "leverage position" Graves talks about. Because you are already there - all that's left is to swing the arms!

sacto83
Advanced
Posts: 59
Post Re: willinlv Lesson #1
on: March 7, 2012, 17:06

Good instuction Kevin. Seems he has an inclination to turn the shoulders more in the BS than they were at setup. A natural carryover from his old swing. That move will naturally put the right shoulder a little higher than the left if the shoulders are moving perpendicular to the spine angle. I experimented with this and found it to be OK as long as you don't sway the torso to the right, you keep a firm trail leg, don't add more weigth shift to the trail side, and you return the shoulders on the path you used to bring it back on. I got some additional clubhead speed with more shoulder turn but as an "addition" to MGS it also requires that you have the timing to perform it the same way each time and this can move the swing away from the minimalist concept Kiran seems to want.

One key item here is if you want more shoulder turn, TWIST THE SPINE MORE ie. turn the ribcage, NOT just try and turn the shoulders more. Turning just the shoulder assembly will jam them tight against the resistance of the spine and cause too much tension and an inconsistant DS. (This concept applies to the twist at setup also.

Seems like he has some residue from the NG swing or Graves swing. Might want to lower the hands a little at setup to get the butt of the club pointing more at the zipper than at the naval. That angle formed by the lead arm and clubshaft is an important one for swing path and leverage. Having no angle or reducing that angle to start with can get you on the wrong plane and interfere with natural movement of the ball and socket joints of the shoulders when using the MGS swing setup. It also will affect the release through impact and cause pushes to the right.

Wrist Cock: I talk about this some in PART III of the review, but for now I'd say stick with Kiran's instruction. More later.

As I mentioned in PART I, maintaining the spine angle for the proper axis of rotation is very important (Chi Line). It lets all the joints line up and function in a non-restricted manner. I think you are spot on in trying to get a student to make sure that angle doesn't change and the golfer doesn't move past it in the DS with a hip trust or shoulder lunge.

willyinnv
Beginner
Posts: 36
Post Re: willinlv Lesson #1
on: March 7, 2012, 18:37

Damn - I've got my "Marching Orders"! Gonna head to the Firing Range and work emphasizing the following:
* Set-up and holding in MGS, making a "no weight shift" swing
* Resisting ‘Lifting/Pulling’ club back and around with Rt.(rear) Hand.
* Keeping it MGS Simple and Compact - Don’t ‘Overswing”

Sacto: ThanX for your added, applicable comments. WillyinNV

willyinnv
Beginner
Posts: 36
Post Re: willinlv Lesson #1
on: March 23, 2012, 18:44

Still reoccurring faults [as evidenced by HS video] diminishing MGS effectiveness - ugly carryovers of old, bad habits, to wit:
A. As a ‘rightie’ strong tendency for Rt.Side involvement, takeover & dominance. How do I kill this - drugs, surgery or what???

B. On B/Swg, Rt.Elbow (still) wants to flare out, wide - probable assisted with a ‘raising’ Rt.Shldr. Rt. Forearm is then not parallel to the target line.

However....MGS results ARE good when I’m relaxed and true to MGS fundamentals. Mo + Video later. Comments please by our gurus Kevin, Sacto & others! ThanX, WillyinNV

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Author Topic: willinlv Lesson #1
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Posts: 191
Post willinlv Lesson #1
on: March 2, 2012, 01:57

willinlv sent some video. Here are a couple of things to think about:

Address
Image

Your shoulders are just about parallel to the target line. You don't start out with near enough torso twist. Bill fessed up that he addresses the ball and sets his stance, THEN makes his torso twist. This is something I am seeing a lot. Please, until you have the set "down", the correct procedure is feet together, bend from hips, twist torso, set feet apart shoulder width. Bill also said he waggles a couple of times before pulling the trigger and that the clip was trimmed to after the waggle....the waggle has pulled him out of his MGS set most likely. The amount of twist you should have AS YOU BEGIN THE BACK SWING is about like you find in this next picture:

Takeaway
Image
See how you can see your chest here Bill? That is where you be be Starting your back swing from. But as you can see, you are already rotating your shoulders and lifting the right shoulder higher than the left.

Top of Swing
Image

The right shoulder is higher than the left by a lot now, and the right elbow is pointing behind you. It should be more pointing down like the yellow line.

Guest
Pro
Posts: 191
Post willinlv Lesson #1 - Face On
on: March 2, 2012, 02:30

The lead arm should climb steeply up the wall of the chest with little shoulder turn. Remember, the "turn" and loading is "built into" your swing by a proper MGS set up. When you make your backswing, you simply let the lead arm come up the chest, at the Top of swing, the right should be hidden by the lead arm...it should be below the lead arm and shoulder:

Image

At top of swing you can see your right shoulder is visible and you have cocked your wrists alot. The club is too "narrow as Kiran would say. The club should be more like the blue line in the top pic. The way you are doing it creates tension in the right shoulder and arm.

Image

Also, your weight has moved from centered to back on your left side, and you have lost some of your brace of your trail leg.

Guest
Pro
Posts: 191
Post willinlv Lesson #1 Weight Shift and Hip Turn
on: March 2, 2012, 02:47

Image
This is what I mean, notice how you have moved "off your body center" - a nice move by the way for classic golf....but the minimalist approach says "Why?" Because if you turn and move back, you will have to unturn and move forward. Keep your weight at body center and just lift the lead arm up and back with no additional turning or pulling back.

So I would try and focus on just getting into your MGS set that looks like the left hand pic, and
keep looking like that as you LET the lead arm ride STEEPLY up your chest wall:
Image

You had mentioned in one of your posts or emails some where shots right...this over active lower body and not getting into an MGS posture and staying there is probably why.

Guest
Pro
Posts: 191
Post Bill Set Up Change Needed
on: March 6, 2012, 03:21

Bill sent some more video, but he is only allowing to post his golf ones, NOT the ones with him and Paris Hilton :P ! Here ya Go.

Image

You can see a lot of Natural Golf / Moe Norman in Bill's set up. He sets up ala Moe with a line running straight up the lead side. MGS wants you to set up more balanced weight even distributed with hips and shoulders. If you set up with weight evenly distributed, and bend form the hips, then torso twist, you will get more of a "pre-load" and more of the desired reverse K look in the trail side. Your set up is good for a non MGS swing that will have you make a weight shift - you have already got a nice head start - the weight is already back. But that will cause problems later on.

Image

You can see at top of swing, your turn has caused your weight to move back even more so that now it is outside the brace of your trail leg. Houston we a problem. To make a good shot, you must get your weight back toward the ball before the club arrives. But as you can see in the final still sequence, your weight is still back even though your hands have dropped to pre-impact.

Image

You have two choices to improve your ball striking. Choice one is to practice the Vital/Master Move of Bertholy that is taught in my Blueprint, and is made by virtually all the elite ball strikers in the world.
OR

You can set up more MGS like, and make a "no weight shift" swing that allows for immediate timing and body mass distributed with maximum efficiency without placing a huge premium on sequencing different body parts back and through.

willyinnv
Beginner
Posts: 36
Post Re: willinlv Lesson #1
on: March 6, 2012, 18:41

ThanX Kevin, for a professional, conscientious review. I'll take a golf break [from 'Paris'] and
work on better implementing proper MGS fundamentals - hopeful of sending you better video soon!
Whatta Challenge! Bill aka 'willyinnv'

Guest
Pro
Posts: 191
Post More on set up - Arm hang
on: March 7, 2012, 01:51

Quote from willyinnv on March 6, 2012, 18:41

Whatta Challenge! Bill aka 'willyinnv'

Bill, once you get it set right, you will see it is not quite the challenge you imagine. MGS sets everything up for a good swing. Your waggle is pulling your right shoulder forward before you begin your back swing, taking you out of your MGS twist. And because your use your SA alignment with your hands higher, you must reach forward and up, which brings your right shoulder back toward the target line. I don't want to give you too much, because you are a lot closer than you think.

If you insist on keeping your trail arm and shaft in line, try making your twist, keeping it there, and let the club shaft stay in a straight line with your lead arm. This will have your club head set behind the ball some more ala Moe...which is okay IF you keep your torso twist.

When swinging to the top, try to feel as if your lead arm and club maintain this straight relationship all the way to the top of the swing. Resist the urge to pull back and around with the trail arm...instead just keep it relaxed and "along for the ride". Your trail arm you should feel like it only has a bend of "around" 130 degrees. Yours bends too much.

A lot of MGS is counter intuitive to what we think should work. This is because of years of playing a certain way, and all the "teaching" we have been exposed too. In your case ( mine too ), years of swinging with the shaft in line with the trail arm has you pre-conditioned against a more natural arm swing.

Try bending more from the hips, and letting your arms hang more free. Take your MGS set without a club and bend over so that as your lead arm hangs there, it is no farther away from your zipper than about 6 inches - about the distance from your pinkie finger to your thumb when your fingers are fully extended. Now, keeping the forward bend and the torso twist, just swing your arm up and down, take it as high as you can, and then just swing it back down...notice how effort less the swing of the arm is, and notice also the path the arm takes. BECAUSE YOUR LEAD ARM IS THE RADIUS OF THE SWING, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THE TRAIL ARM IS SA ALIGNED OR NOT!

Now, take your normal SA aligned stance and grip with a club. Then drop the club and swing your lead arm again up and down and feel the difference, again noting the path your lead arm takes. Which one seems more natural and gives a freer swing of the arms? Be honest.

Image

You see, you have followed my posts for years on the other forum. You know I held in low esteem any golf action that involved an arms swing. I was a lower body starts the swing first, the arms are "passive" and a body swinger advocate.

But with a a proper MGS set up, you still have the body involved, but with a lot less wasted motion. The body is set in place so that the big muscles still provide power, but they are able to do it in more harmony with the arms swing. When you do MGS correctly, you can swing your arms all you want and they won't get out of sync with your body, because your body is already synched - all that's left is for the arms to swing.

I wish I had the bio-mechanics proficiency to explain the above, but we will just have to wait for Sacto, or Kiran to chime in. But to give you a peek behind the curtain, notice what you feel in your lower body as you make your MGS twist - what parts get tighter, where is your wiehgt going, where do you feel stretches? MGS loads you up without you having to make the big wind of classic golf, or the "leverage position" Graves talks about. Because you are already there - all that's left is to swing the arms!

sacto83
Advanced
Posts: 59
Post Re: willinlv Lesson #1
on: March 7, 2012, 17:06

Good instuction Kevin. Seems he has an inclination to turn the shoulders more in the BS than they were at setup. A natural carryover from his old swing. That move will naturally put the right shoulder a little higher than the left if the shoulders are moving perpendicular to the spine angle. I experimented with this and found it to be OK as long as you don't sway the torso to the right, you keep a firm trail leg, don't add more weigth shift to the trail side, and you return the shoulders on the path you used to bring it back on. I got some additional clubhead speed with more shoulder turn but as an "addition" to MGS it also requires that you have the timing to perform it the same way each time and this can move the swing away from the minimalist concept Kiran seems to want.

One key item here is if you want more shoulder turn, TWIST THE SPINE MORE ie. turn the ribcage, NOT just try and turn the shoulders more. Turning just the shoulder assembly will jam them tight against the resistance of the spine and cause too much tension and an inconsistant DS. (This concept applies to the twist at setup also.

Seems like he has some residue from the NG swing or Graves swing. Might want to lower the hands a little at setup to get the butt of the club pointing more at the zipper than at the naval. That angle formed by the lead arm and clubshaft is an important one for swing path and leverage. Having no angle or reducing that angle to start with can get you on the wrong plane and interfere with natural movement of the ball and socket joints of the shoulders when using the MGS swing setup. It also will affect the release through impact and cause pushes to the right.

Wrist Cock: I talk about this some in PART III of the review, but for now I'd say stick with Kiran's instruction. More later.

As I mentioned in PART I, maintaining the spine angle for the proper axis of rotation is very important (Chi Line). It lets all the joints line up and function in a non-restricted manner. I think you are spot on in trying to get a student to make sure that angle doesn't change and the golfer doesn't move past it in the DS with a hip trust or shoulder lunge.

willyinnv
Beginner
Posts: 36
Post Re: willinlv Lesson #1
on: March 7, 2012, 18:37

Damn - I've got my "Marching Orders"! Gonna head to the Firing Range and work emphasizing the following:
* Set-up and holding in MGS, making a "no weight shift" swing
* Resisting ‘Lifting/Pulling’ club back and around with Rt.(rear) Hand.
* Keeping it MGS Simple and Compact - Don’t ‘Overswing”

Sacto: ThanX for your added, applicable comments. WillyinNV

willyinnv
Beginner
Posts: 36
Post Re: willinlv Lesson #1
on: March 23, 2012, 18:44

Still reoccurring faults [as evidenced by HS video] diminishing MGS effectiveness - ugly carryovers of old, bad habits, to wit:
A. As a ‘rightie’ strong tendency for Rt.Side involvement, takeover & dominance. How do I kill this - drugs, surgery or what???

B. On B/Swg, Rt.Elbow (still) wants to flare out, wide - probable assisted with a ‘raising’ Rt.Shldr. Rt. Forearm is then not parallel to the target line.

However....MGS results ARE good when I’m relaxed and true to MGS fundamentals. Mo + Video later. Comments please by our gurus Kevin, Sacto & others! ThanX, WillyinNV

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