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Author Topic: MGS vs RSS
malibu427
Newbie
Posts: 13
Post MGS vs RSS
on: March 29, 2012, 18:57

Well, it had to happen, and it did, last week on the course. MGS let me down....or probably , in reality, I let MGS down. Whatever the case I started hitting lots of bad shots. My drives were low hooks...and I even hit two 3 woods off the toe dead right. Very embarrassing. My cousin commented " maybe if you'd quit putting your hand in your crotch" (setting my distance with the club)... "and slapping your leg" (setting my torso twist)..." maybe you would hit it better." After that I sort of switched back to my RSS (Right Sided Swing) set up and started to get it back together somewhat. My question is do you feel as I do that the RSS and MGS setup positions are actually quite similar. Now when I put myself into the RSS setup, I feel that I'm somewhat twisting the torso and can hit the ball well with either a RSS wrist cock, or an MGS non-wrist cock. Would appreciate any feedback...

Guest
Pro
Posts: 191
Post Re: MGS vs RSS
on: March 30, 2012, 10:27

Malibu. not familiar with RSS, but keep in mind the MAIN thing with MGS is setting your forward lean and twist, and then KEEPING that tilt there as you swing. Also, keep to minimum any assist you provide to the swing by lower body slide, hip or shoulder rotation.

many golfers report success using aspects of MGS, and as Sacto has pointed out in his excellent review, it is important to find YOUR swing and MGS fit. Whatever you find, stay with it...MGS is so simple it is pretty much "tinker proof" if you follow the instruction. I can make swings using more shoulder turn, and setting my wrists and I can generate additional club head speed this way, but my consistency falls off, so I am staying pretty much with MGS for my playing swing.

Also keep in mind that even pros have bad days with swings they have honed over many years....even decades. If they can, then even more so you and me! For the average Joe golfer who has had success with some changes for a period and then the "wheels fall off", the normal reaction is to try and figure things out - what went wrong? Often it is nothing, and if you just re-double your efforts and stick to the basics you will be all right. This reaction is human and I see it often in my sales training at my day job. An agent starts out well with a new strategy, is chuggin along great, and then hits the inevitable rough patch. They start wondering if "the program works" and they start changing this or that and before long they are nowhere near the strategy as they were initially taught. I re-train them and have them get back to basics and usuaully things turn around.

So it is no time to panic, just give yourself a "check up from the neck up", and understand you are not a pro, and just stick to YOUR MGS and you will be fine.

Kevin

sacto83
Advanced
Posts: 59
Post Re: MGS vs RSS
on: March 30, 2012, 20:45

I tried using the RSS reverse K setup combined with the MGS pre-turn and had excellent ball striking. That combination does two things: (1) it keeps your center of gravity at or just in front of the ball so you are in good position to use the levers, (2) it assists in a good rotation of the torso through the ball which keeps you centered and in balance and lets you fire the right side without sliding left too much.

My guess on what was occuring when the wheels came off was that you had twisted the upper torso too far to the right with the head too far back and then were not rotating on the Chi line. If you were hitting off the toe its likely you were sliding the torso left to get back into position and then dragging the club to catch up. If you preturn too far to the right, the weight will shift too much that way and you can get stuck there temporarily and find it difficult to regain the proper impact postion.

Using the RSS setup and then the MGS twist is a good way to stay centered so long as you don't overdo the pre-turn. That setup will also minimize the weight shift in the BS and help keep you pivot between your legs; a must for swinging on the proper axis of rotation.

One other thing to check is your hand positon at setup and the hand path during the BS. Hands too close to the body (zipper) will inhibit your takeaway and DS causing you to to have to come out of your spine angle during the DS. Try moving the hands a little further from your zipper and see if you don't get a freer swing without goat humping.

malibu427
Newbie
Posts: 13
Post Re: MGS vs RSS
on: March 31, 2012, 11:46

Thanks guys , as always, for your quick and concise replies. I'll keep these ideas in mind and continue my MGS journey. I think that my turn and twist WAS putting too much weight on my rear side and I was stuck there and not finishing up with more weight forward. One of my other playing partners commented that "I was hanging back with my driver and spinning out." Thanks again Kevin and Sacto for "talking me down....." LOL

Guest
Pro
Posts: 191
Post Re: MGS vs RSS
on: April 3, 2012, 02:04

Quote from sacto83 on March 30, 2012, 20:45
My guess on what was occuring when the wheels came off was that you had twisted the upper torso too far to the right with the head too far back and then were not rotating on the Chi line. If you were hitting off the toe its likely you were sliding the torso left to get back into position and then dragging the club to catch up. If you preturn too far to the right, the weight will shift too much that way and you can get stuck there temporarily and find it difficult to regain the proper impact postion.

Using the RSS setup and then the MGS twist is a good way to stay centered so long as you don't overdo the pre-turn. That setup will also minimize the weight shift in the BS and help keep you pivot between your legs; a must for swinging on the proper axis of rotation.

Sacto, here is a video I made so everyone can perhaps see how much twist and more importantly, how to twist. Also a little bit about the zipper thing.

sacto83
Advanced
Posts: 59
Post Re: MGS vs RSS
on: April 3, 2012, 04:42

Kevin; Nice job. Looks good. Your hard work makes it easier for the folks on this forum.

I'm curious about the order of your setup. You start with the feet together, then twist, and then widen your feet to your stance. Is that what Kiran recommends also?

My procedure has always been to first set my stance width (I do this first because it can be different with different irons and woods). Setting the stance width first also assures me I am in balance for the club I'm using and the shot I want to hit (draw, fade, straight). Once I have the stance width, I then bend from the waist forward to set the particular club I'm using. The the last thing I do is perform the twist. I then know immediatialy if my head or torso is too far to the right and I can adjust. I will try it your way and see how it goes and report back.

Don't misunderstand. I'm not saying your procedure is wrong. I just assumed from the beginning that the golfer would fist set the stance width according to the club being used and to make sure he's in balance.

About the distance of the butt end of the club from the zipper. I don't know what club you are using in the video, but it looks about right. I'd suggest though that the distance could change with a shorter or longer club. It could also change depending on the anatomy of the golfer (taller, shorter, longer arms, shorter arms, heavy torso, slim torso). I don't think there is necessarily a cookie cutter distance for everyone. I'd suggest it's what keeps you in balance and lets the arms swing freely from the sockets without interferance.

The twist you perform is better than in your earlier videos since you head doesn't get outside your trail knee too far, and your posture seems to be better (though only you can say if you hit the ball better from that position). As I said before, if you start the DS from a position too far to the right, it will be more difficult to get a good rotation aroung the proper axis. I hit a lot of heel shots and pushes before figuring out that I was twisting to far to the right at setup. I think there is room for the golfer to adjust a little to what fits their swing mechanics.

Again, thanks for the videos you post and your dedication to teaching the game.

Guest
Pro
Posts: 191
Post Set up and Zipper
on: April 3, 2012, 10:45

Quote from sacto83 on April 3, 2012, 04:42

I'm curious about the order of your setup. You start with the feet together, then twist, and then widen your feet to your stance. Is that what Kiran recommends also?

About the distance of the butt end of the club from the zipper. I don't know what club you are using in the video, but it looks about right. I'd suggest though that the distance could change with a shorter or longer club. It could also change depending on the anatomy of the golfer (taller, shorter, longer arms, shorter arms, heavy torso, slim torso). I don't think there is necessarily a cookie cutter distance for everyone. I'd suggest it's what keeps you in balance and lets the arms swing freely from the sockets without interferance.

The twist you perform is better than in your earlier videos since you head doesn't get outside your trail knee too far, and your posture seems to be better (though only you can say if you hit the ball better from that position). As I said before, if you start the DS from a position too far to the right, it will be more difficult to get a good rotation aroung the proper axis. I hit a lot of heel shots and pushes before figuring out that I was twisting to far to the right at setup. I think there is room for the golfer to adjust a little to what fits their swing mechanics.

Kiran wants the golfer to keep the feet together, then set the stance. In fact, she would prefer you to hit many shots from this position starting out. I think it helps the golfer feel the twist more, and i am sure there is some bio-mechanical reason, but I just try and follow her instruction. I have always followed your procedure of stance width first, so her way seems a bit quirky and awkward.

I am using a 6 iron, and the idea behind using a "gap measurer" is so that the golfer can feel and know exactly what these distances feel and look like. She says 5-6" is ideal. I want the golfer to know what 5-6" is and it is just a simple way to do that. I think that with the arms closer to the zipper than five inches, the golfer will have a hard time swinging free as you say, and will try and compensate by using his body to get the club through the impact zone. ( Furyk )

I have hit the ball really well since making those adjustments, and also find it easier to hit fades with this adjustment.

sacto83
Advanced
Posts: 59
Post Re: MGS vs RSS
on: April 3, 2012, 14:27

Kevin: I agree about hitting balls with the feet together. I recall sometime last year the feet together drill was voted one of the best drills ever for getting a feel for staying balanced, the proper sequencing, and proper hand path. Tom Watson still uses it before each round. So I concur with Kirans' recommendation to use it after performing the twist. But on actual shots in play, I have trouble with the idea of performing the twist before you actually take your stance because from the feet together position you can easily get the head and torso too far to the right. I'll reserve judgement until I try it your way and see how it pans out. There is probably a reason Kiran perfers it that way but I've yet to see the advantage having not tried it.

I agree that having the arms too close to the body at setup will restrict the DS. You will likely have a tendency to come out of your spine angle on the DS in order to give the arms and club room to swing. (Not necessarily so with shorter pitches with short irons)

hopkinscow-
boys
Newbie
Posts: 14
Post Re: MGS vs RSS
on: June 8, 2012, 02:34

Sorry guys, maybe posted elsewhere but what is RSS?

sacto83
Advanced
Posts: 59
Post Re: MGS vs RSS
on: June 8, 2012, 04:03

RSS is the "Right Sided Swing" taught by Gary Irwin out of Australia. In a nut shell it’s the following:
You envision a wall next to your lead side. You set up in a reverse K position at set-up. You line up your lead side (foot, leg, hip, torso, and shoulder) against the wall. You keep it there during the BS (the lead shoulder will come away from the wall during the BS). In the BS the hands come only shoulder high as you rotate back on a one plane BS. The lead leg acts as a post around which the right side will rotate in the DS. A lot of leverage and speed in that method. Here’s a link to the 2006 instructor of the year showing how it’s done:

I call it a single post swing because you are not transferring much weight to the trail side in the BS and not posting off the trail leg in the DS; just the lead leg.

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Author Topic: MGS vs RSS
malibu427
Newbie
Posts: 13
Post MGS vs RSS
on: March 29, 2012, 18:57

Well, it had to happen, and it did, last week on the course. MGS let me down....or probably , in reality, I let MGS down. Whatever the case I started hitting lots of bad shots. My drives were low hooks...and I even hit two 3 woods off the toe dead right. Very embarrassing. My cousin commented " maybe if you'd quit putting your hand in your crotch" (setting my distance with the club)... "and slapping your leg" (setting my torso twist)..." maybe you would hit it better." After that I sort of switched back to my RSS (Right Sided Swing) set up and started to get it back together somewhat. My question is do you feel as I do that the RSS and MGS setup positions are actually quite similar. Now when I put myself into the RSS setup, I feel that I'm somewhat twisting the torso and can hit the ball well with either a RSS wrist cock, or an MGS non-wrist cock. Would appreciate any feedback...

Guest
Pro
Posts: 191
Post Re: MGS vs RSS
on: March 30, 2012, 10:27

Malibu. not familiar with RSS, but keep in mind the MAIN thing with MGS is setting your forward lean and twist, and then KEEPING that tilt there as you swing. Also, keep to minimum any assist you provide to the swing by lower body slide, hip or shoulder rotation.

many golfers report success using aspects of MGS, and as Sacto has pointed out in his excellent review, it is important to find YOUR swing and MGS fit. Whatever you find, stay with it...MGS is so simple it is pretty much "tinker proof" if you follow the instruction. I can make swings using more shoulder turn, and setting my wrists and I can generate additional club head speed this way, but my consistency falls off, so I am staying pretty much with MGS for my playing swing.

Also keep in mind that even pros have bad days with swings they have honed over many years....even decades. If they can, then even more so you and me! For the average Joe golfer who has had success with some changes for a period and then the "wheels fall off", the normal reaction is to try and figure things out - what went wrong? Often it is nothing, and if you just re-double your efforts and stick to the basics you will be all right. This reaction is human and I see it often in my sales training at my day job. An agent starts out well with a new strategy, is chuggin along great, and then hits the inevitable rough patch. They start wondering if "the program works" and they start changing this or that and before long they are nowhere near the strategy as they were initially taught. I re-train them and have them get back to basics and usuaully things turn around.

So it is no time to panic, just give yourself a "check up from the neck up", and understand you are not a pro, and just stick to YOUR MGS and you will be fine.

Kevin

sacto83
Advanced
Posts: 59
Post Re: MGS vs RSS
on: March 30, 2012, 20:45

I tried using the RSS reverse K setup combined with the MGS pre-turn and had excellent ball striking. That combination does two things: (1) it keeps your center of gravity at or just in front of the ball so you are in good position to use the levers, (2) it assists in a good rotation of the torso through the ball which keeps you centered and in balance and lets you fire the right side without sliding left too much.

My guess on what was occuring when the wheels came off was that you had twisted the upper torso too far to the right with the head too far back and then were not rotating on the Chi line. If you were hitting off the toe its likely you were sliding the torso left to get back into position and then dragging the club to catch up. If you preturn too far to the right, the weight will shift too much that way and you can get stuck there temporarily and find it difficult to regain the proper impact postion.

Using the RSS setup and then the MGS twist is a good way to stay centered so long as you don't overdo the pre-turn. That setup will also minimize the weight shift in the BS and help keep you pivot between your legs; a must for swinging on the proper axis of rotation.

One other thing to check is your hand positon at setup and the hand path during the BS. Hands too close to the body (zipper) will inhibit your takeaway and DS causing you to to have to come out of your spine angle during the DS. Try moving the hands a little further from your zipper and see if you don't get a freer swing without goat humping.

malibu427
Newbie
Posts: 13
Post Re: MGS vs RSS
on: March 31, 2012, 11:46

Thanks guys , as always, for your quick and concise replies. I'll keep these ideas in mind and continue my MGS journey. I think that my turn and twist WAS putting too much weight on my rear side and I was stuck there and not finishing up with more weight forward. One of my other playing partners commented that "I was hanging back with my driver and spinning out." Thanks again Kevin and Sacto for "talking me down....." LOL

Guest
Pro
Posts: 191
Post Re: MGS vs RSS
on: April 3, 2012, 02:04

Quote from sacto83 on March 30, 2012, 20:45
My guess on what was occuring when the wheels came off was that you had twisted the upper torso too far to the right with the head too far back and then were not rotating on the Chi line. If you were hitting off the toe its likely you were sliding the torso left to get back into position and then dragging the club to catch up. If you preturn too far to the right, the weight will shift too much that way and you can get stuck there temporarily and find it difficult to regain the proper impact postion.

Using the RSS setup and then the MGS twist is a good way to stay centered so long as you don't overdo the pre-turn. That setup will also minimize the weight shift in the BS and help keep you pivot between your legs; a must for swinging on the proper axis of rotation.

Sacto, here is a video I made so everyone can perhaps see how much twist and more importantly, how to twist. Also a little bit about the zipper thing.

sacto83
Advanced
Posts: 59
Post Re: MGS vs RSS
on: April 3, 2012, 04:42

Kevin; Nice job. Looks good. Your hard work makes it easier for the folks on this forum.

I'm curious about the order of your setup. You start with the feet together, then twist, and then widen your feet to your stance. Is that what Kiran recommends also?

My procedure has always been to first set my stance width (I do this first because it can be different with different irons and woods). Setting the stance width first also assures me I am in balance for the club I'm using and the shot I want to hit (draw, fade, straight). Once I have the stance width, I then bend from the waist forward to set the particular club I'm using. The the last thing I do is perform the twist. I then know immediatialy if my head or torso is too far to the right and I can adjust. I will try it your way and see how it goes and report back.

Don't misunderstand. I'm not saying your procedure is wrong. I just assumed from the beginning that the golfer would fist set the stance width according to the club being used and to make sure he's in balance.

About the distance of the butt end of the club from the zipper. I don't know what club you are using in the video, but it looks about right. I'd suggest though that the distance could change with a shorter or longer club. It could also change depending on the anatomy of the golfer (taller, shorter, longer arms, shorter arms, heavy torso, slim torso). I don't think there is necessarily a cookie cutter distance for everyone. I'd suggest it's what keeps you in balance and lets the arms swing freely from the sockets without interferance.

The twist you perform is better than in your earlier videos since you head doesn't get outside your trail knee too far, and your posture seems to be better (though only you can say if you hit the ball better from that position). As I said before, if you start the DS from a position too far to the right, it will be more difficult to get a good rotation aroung the proper axis. I hit a lot of heel shots and pushes before figuring out that I was twisting to far to the right at setup. I think there is room for the golfer to adjust a little to what fits their swing mechanics.

Again, thanks for the videos you post and your dedication to teaching the game.

Guest
Pro
Posts: 191
Post Set up and Zipper
on: April 3, 2012, 10:45

Quote from sacto83 on April 3, 2012, 04:42

I'm curious about the order of your setup. You start with the feet together, then twist, and then widen your feet to your stance. Is that what Kiran recommends also?

About the distance of the butt end of the club from the zipper. I don't know what club you are using in the video, but it looks about right. I'd suggest though that the distance could change with a shorter or longer club. It could also change depending on the anatomy of the golfer (taller, shorter, longer arms, shorter arms, heavy torso, slim torso). I don't think there is necessarily a cookie cutter distance for everyone. I'd suggest it's what keeps you in balance and lets the arms swing freely from the sockets without interferance.

The twist you perform is better than in your earlier videos since you head doesn't get outside your trail knee too far, and your posture seems to be better (though only you can say if you hit the ball better from that position). As I said before, if you start the DS from a position too far to the right, it will be more difficult to get a good rotation aroung the proper axis. I hit a lot of heel shots and pushes before figuring out that I was twisting to far to the right at setup. I think there is room for the golfer to adjust a little to what fits their swing mechanics.

Kiran wants the golfer to keep the feet together, then set the stance. In fact, she would prefer you to hit many shots from this position starting out. I think it helps the golfer feel the twist more, and i am sure there is some bio-mechanical reason, but I just try and follow her instruction. I have always followed your procedure of stance width first, so her way seems a bit quirky and awkward.

I am using a 6 iron, and the idea behind using a "gap measurer" is so that the golfer can feel and know exactly what these distances feel and look like. She says 5-6" is ideal. I want the golfer to know what 5-6" is and it is just a simple way to do that. I think that with the arms closer to the zipper than five inches, the golfer will have a hard time swinging free as you say, and will try and compensate by using his body to get the club through the impact zone. ( Furyk )

I have hit the ball really well since making those adjustments, and also find it easier to hit fades with this adjustment.

sacto83
Advanced
Posts: 59
Post Re: MGS vs RSS
on: April 3, 2012, 14:27

Kevin: I agree about hitting balls with the feet together. I recall sometime last year the feet together drill was voted one of the best drills ever for getting a feel for staying balanced, the proper sequencing, and proper hand path. Tom Watson still uses it before each round. So I concur with Kirans' recommendation to use it after performing the twist. But on actual shots in play, I have trouble with the idea of performing the twist before you actually take your stance because from the feet together position you can easily get the head and torso too far to the right. I'll reserve judgement until I try it your way and see how it pans out. There is probably a reason Kiran perfers it that way but I've yet to see the advantage having not tried it.

I agree that having the arms too close to the body at setup will restrict the DS. You will likely have a tendency to come out of your spine angle on the DS in order to give the arms and club room to swing. (Not necessarily so with shorter pitches with short irons)

hopkinscow-
boys
Newbie
Posts: 14
Post Re: MGS vs RSS
on: June 8, 2012, 02:34

Sorry guys, maybe posted elsewhere but what is RSS?

sacto83
Advanced
Posts: 59
Post Re: MGS vs RSS
on: June 8, 2012, 04:03

RSS is the "Right Sided Swing" taught by Gary Irwin out of Australia. In a nut shell it’s the following:
You envision a wall next to your lead side. You set up in a reverse K position at set-up. You line up your lead side (foot, leg, hip, torso, and shoulder) against the wall. You keep it there during the BS (the lead shoulder will come away from the wall during the BS). In the BS the hands come only shoulder high as you rotate back on a one plane BS. The lead leg acts as a post around which the right side will rotate in the DS. A lot of leverage and speed in that method. Here’s a link to the 2006 instructor of the year showing how it’s done:

I call it a single post swing because you are not transferring much weight to the trail side in the BS and not posting off the trail leg in the DS; just the lead leg.

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